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Merry Christmas... My Great Grandaughter came home yesterday from the hospital she was born on October the 26th she has been in the Pittsburgh Hospital till yesterday evening and was not due till January 14th. Jayden Kathleen Taking a huge dinner to the kids and the gifts after while.Hope you all have a God Blessed Christmas....
Re: Merry Christmas « Result #2 Yesterday at 4:22pm »
Merry Christmas....and may the LORD bless you all, and may we all be pleasing in His sight....To Jesus, our Lord and our God....be all glory honor and praise.
Joined: Dec 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 44 Location: Along the Ohio
Re: Merry Christmas « Result #3 Yesterday at 7:59am »
Merry Christmas... My Great Grandaughter came home yesterday from the hospital she was born on October the 26th she has been in the Pittsburgh Hospital till yesterday evening and was not due till January 14th. Jayden Kathleen Taking a huge dinner to the kids and the gifts after while.Hope you all have a God Blessed Christmas....
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
Re: Merry Christmas « Result #6 on Dec 24, 2009, 11:40pm »
So my wife, Laurie, is shopping for Christmas dinner and doesn't like any of the green vegetables at the grocery store. She decides she will stop by the Korean grocery on the way to the Christmas Eve service. We are running late and traffic is really bad so we don't have time to stop for the vegetables. Thus, no green veggie for Christmas dinner. Not the end of the world but not what my wife wants.
Before the Christmas Eve service she is talking to a lady at church about her dilemma and hopes a store will be open after the service. The lady opens her bag and gives my wife two bags of fresh green beans. She bought them to take dinner at another church members home tomorrow and was told not to bring them after all since they are going to have too much food.
Nice little Christmas present from God by way of Denise.
Merry Christmas to all and Christ filled New Year!
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
The idea that God causes someone to sin . . . doesn't that go just a bit against such verses as James 1:13 -- "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one." Is God now the author of evil under open theism?
The Scripture is true. Just because we can think of an exception or two, it doesn't negate the general truth.
I can't prove that God, as a part of Judas' punishment, forced him to do the dirty deed. The Gospels do not say. There are similar examples though...
During the 10 plagues of Egypt, God hardened Pharaoh's heart four times.
In I Ki. 22, God sent a lying angel to fill the mouths of the false prophets with promises of victory for Ahab. By sinning (listening to the false prophets), Ahab met his death.
In I Sam 18, God sent a lying spirit to tempt Saul to try and murder David.
In each of these cases, I think what's happening is that God has already judged these evil men. Once judgment takes place, then God can judge any way He wishes. God can even use the evil man to bring forth His will.
I've got a fever . . . and the only prescription . . . is more cowbell!!!
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 307 Location: Cary, NC
Re: Prayer « Result #9 on Dec 24, 2009, 3:03pm »
The idea that God causes someone to sin . . . doesn't that go just a bit against such verses as James 1:13 -- "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one." Is God now the author of evil under open theism?
Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 3,743 Location: Scufflegrit, Alabama
Re: The New American Stardard Daily Check In « Result #13 on Dec 24, 2009, 11:20am »
We are about to go into the kitchen and make Christmas Eve Super. Then open presents and wait on the Fat Man to do his do. Merry Christmas to my CFF Family!
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,266 Location: Long Island New York
Re: Merry Christmas « Result #16 on Dec 24, 2009, 9:59am »
Luke 2:10-12 (NASB) 10 But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; 11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
[quote author=repentingpastor board=discussion thread=2378 post=69718 time=1261589952With regard to Judas, even if Jesus saw that Judas was a betrayer at the point he called him, he would also have to know that Judas would not change which to me seems like foreknowledge but I guess it is just being really smart. Perhaps it is a matter of God deciding that Judas would not change.
[/quote]
Or, like with Pharaoh, it could have been an act of judgement. God condemns Judas for sins committed, and then causes him to betray Jesus. If God wishes, He can take away our ability to choose as a part of punishment.
Well face, Has God ever made a mistake? has He ever said something would happen or someone would do something that they did not?
John
There's an easy answer to the second question...how about when God predicted the ruin of Niniveh in Jonah?
As for the first question, God doesn't make mistakes, but consider this senario...
Your child wishes to learn to drive a car. You give your permission, pay for the lessons, and even buy a very safe vehicle. Then there's a terrible accident, and your child dies.
Was your decision to let your child learn to drive a mistake or not?
My point is that even the right decisons don't always work out. That's not the same as it being a mistake.
The wonderful thing about God is that whatever happens, He can handle it.
With the passage? yes! with your interpretation? Not so much.
For whose benefit is the languaged used? certainly not Gods. He speaks to us in a language we can understand and respond to is all. I find it curious you call this a parable? is there any indication of this?
First we are told God only foreknows once something is thought of but when shown that the Lord knew Judas was a devil and would betray Him two years before the act no one has any response. I had never given this subject much thought until the last time it was discussed and frankly after hearing the both sides it was a very simple decision which side to come down on
John
I don't know who calls it a parable. It is a parable (the incident with the pottery teaches a deeper spiritual lesson).
Open Theism teaches that God knows much about the future. He is also immeasurably wise, and can predict what we might or might not do with great accuracy. But it also recognizes that the future is not exhaustively set. Some things are open.
But I didn't catch your answer exactly. Can God reconsider things? Can He change His mind if He wishes to? Can our prayers actually change what might have happened? Can you answer this with a yes or no?
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
An Evangelist was one who spread the gospel, and traveled and visited and esiablished Elders, minister to a group for a time....I just dont see where a BODY paid to retain their own Evangelist....
Not that it is wrong; a BODY can do that....freedom in the Lord....
But why put it on the members to pay a person $20000-$60000 a year to preach and minister to them, when a few good Elders can do it and for free?
Most BODIES do not need an Evangelist, they just think they do..save yourselves money, get your minister to help qualify some Elders....
$20000 to $60000? Where is that? Heck that isn't the greatest pay. In some areas $60 000 for a family is poverty level.
And actually in some cases the churches aren't hiring an evangelist, they hiring an elder to be part of the eldership to do the work of preaching/ teaching and equipping.
I see some churches treat their minister as a hired hand rather than ministering. Even abuse and mistreat some staff. SAD is the transition and turnover - especially those in the youth ministry field.
Do you suppose that God could cause three people to ask Peter, giving him the opportunity to either deny or acknowledge?
Wait . . . .wait wait wait wait. I was being sympathetic to the cause, F.A., if not in complete agreement, but you drew me up short here.
What happened to openness and free will? You're saying that God took over these three people, took away their free will for a moment and made them do something they wouldn't ordinarily have done, in order to bring about a piece of his plan????
If you say that God CAUSED them to ask so that Peter could choose . . . well, there's just all kinds of contradiction to your whole argument in there.
Yes, it seems a little odd that God decided that Peter should sin by denying Jesus and he should do it three times. Thus, God arranged for Peter to be approached three times so that Peter could sin three times.
This sort of turns 1 Cor 10:13 "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it." on its head.
Now it is "If God wants you to sin there will be no escape."
With regard to Judas, even if Jesus saw that Judas was a betrayer at the point he called him, he would also have to know that Judas would not change which to me seems like foreknowledge but I guess it is just being really smart. Perhaps it is a matter of God deciding that Judas would not change.
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,266 Location: Long Island New York
Re: Prayer « Result #37 on Dec 23, 2009, 11:12am »
Well face, Has God ever made a mistake? has He ever said something would happen or someone would do something that they did not? Saying God caused is a very dangerous comment especially in light of some of the things foretold. it can suggest that God caused man to sin, or that God caused sin itself, rather then the more theological position that God had already seen it. Has God gone against suppossed free will in accomplishing these things he causes to happen? did He just guess right every time?
John 21:17 (NASB) 17 He said* to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said* to him, "Tend My sheep.
how could or why would Peter say that Jesus knew all things? because Jesus in every instance proved he did. there was never an oops moment, not once.
But you guys would have us believe that Jesus did not know Judas would betray him, only that one of them would and if it did not happen as foretold Jesus would do what? cause Judas to sin? if Judas refuse cause one of the others to sin? you said he could only know once it because actual thought but Jesus predicted Judas' betray 2 years in advance before any temptation arrived.
I've got a fever . . . and the only prescription . . . is more cowbell!!!
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 307 Location: Cary, NC
Re: Prayer « Result #38 on Dec 23, 2009, 11:07am »
Quote:
Do you suppose that God could cause three people to ask Peter, giving him the opportunity to either deny or acknowledge?
Wait . . . .wait wait wait wait. I was being sympathetic to the cause, F.A., if not in complete agreement, but you drew me up short here.
What happened to openness and free will? You're saying that God took over these three people, took away their free will for a moment and made them do something they wouldn't ordinarily have done, in order to bring about a piece of his plan????
If you say that God CAUSED them to ask so that Peter could choose . . . well, there's just all kinds of contradiction to your whole argument in there.
Re: The New American Stardard Daily Check In « Result #39 on Dec 23, 2009, 10:38am »
Hey, no jury duty. They didn't draw my name. Now I have all my work done for the week, and a whole day with nothing to do, and my lovely wife is down with a bad back.
John 6:64-65 (NASB) 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
For Jesus knew from the beginning. Before it was a thought or entered the heart etc etc etc
John 6:70-71 (NASB) 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.
two years before the actual act or before it became a thought (not to mention the prophecy in Psalms)
John
So, John, it's easier for you to believe that God had to actually see it all happen than for Jesus to be able to look into the heart and mind of Judas when He was choosing His disciples...one of whom He knew would have to betray Him? I still have not seen any scriptural indication of God being able to see every choice, every decision of every man before time began.
DISCLAIMER: The thoughts expressed above are solely the opinon of this writer. They are in no way to be considered perfect or binding upon any reader. However, in the event that when Christ returns it is discovered that this opinion is correct, this writer reserves the right to say "I TOLD YOU SO!"
Just curious? where in there does it say God does not already know the choice to be made?
But lets not stop there
Jeremiah 18:11-12 (NASB) 11 "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the Lord, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."' 12 "[bold] But they will say [/bold], 'It's hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.'
How does God know what they will say even before they say it? the word "nacham" translated reconsider is literally " I am sorry" that I promised it. certainly not from what follows that He did not know the outcome
John
When God says, "But they will say..." is He actually declaring that every one of them will actually say exactly what He says, or that He knows that their hearts are prone to being stubborn and not accepting His offer of a better ending? You like to think that God only speaks to man in a way that man can accept it, therefore God doesn't necessarily have to really mean anything He is saying. Yet I have not found any indication that tells me that God only speaks to man in such a way.
I can see my child preparing to do something he should not and warn him that he should think twice about what he is planning; I can also generally tell when he's going to go ahead with what he's planning even before it happens...not because I foresaw it actually happening. If I can do this with my own human limitations, can't God see far more by seeing the thoughts and intents of the heart?
DISCLAIMER: The thoughts expressed above are solely the opinon of this writer. They are in no way to be considered perfect or binding upon any reader. However, in the event that when Christ returns it is discovered that this opinion is correct, this writer reserves the right to say "I TOLD YOU SO!"
Just the clarify. Peter denied three times and Judas betrayed Jesus because that was God's will?
Was it God's plan that the Christ should suffer and die to atone for the sins of all mankind? Were the people anxiously and longingly awaiting for the promised Messiah?
So when this Messiah came and the people flocked to Him, learned from Him, and saw God's power through His teaching and miracles, we are to expect that somehow without God's plan being enacted, they would all turn and call for His crucifixion?
When did Peter deny Jesus three times? Once after each of three different people asked him. Do you suppose that God could cause three people to ask Peter, giving him the opportunity to either deny or acknowledge? Could Jesus see and know the hearts of these men and what would happen when He was taken?
What is so difficult about seeing that God constantly interacts with His creation, working to see that His plan meets fulfillment, including all prophecy? If Jesus had said, "Peter, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me four times..." do you think that perhaps God could have prompted a fourth person to ask Peter about his relationship with Jesus?
Please, John, rp, or whoever else, show me where the Bible says that God knows every decision, every choice of every man before He began His creation. Then the discussion will pretty much be over.
DISCLAIMER: The thoughts expressed above are solely the opinon of this writer. They are in no way to be considered perfect or binding upon any reader. However, in the event that when Christ returns it is discovered that this opinion is correct, this writer reserves the right to say "I TOLD YOU SO!"
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,128 Location: In the Shadow of His Wings
Anyone near Cleveland OH « Result #43 on Dec 23, 2009, 9:08am »
a church member was flown there overnight with a medical emergancy. I am hoping someone is close enough to visit with her and her husband, once I find out what hospital they are in.
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,266 Location: Long Island New York
Re: Prayer « Result #46 on Dec 23, 2009, 8:51am »
With the passage? yes! with your interpretation? Not so much.
For whose benefit is the languaged used? certainly not Gods. He speaks to us in a language we can understand and respond to is all. I find it curious you call this a parable? is there any indication of this?
First we are told God only foreknows once something is thought of but when shown that the Lord knew Judas was a devil and would betray Him two years before the act no one has any response. I had never given this subject much thought until the last time it was discussed and frankly after hearing the both sides it was a very simple decision which side to come down on
Joined: Dec 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 44 Location: Along the Ohio
Re: The New American Stardard Daily Check In « Result #48 on Dec 23, 2009, 7:38am »
19 here in Bugtussel. Kids are all here with us as the Baby will be coming home Christmas Eve..She was Born on October the 26th and has been in Pittsburgh Hospital because she was not due till January the 14th. Our oldest son is coming here today around 12 with his family.Im taking a gift and food out to the country to my cousins she is 90 and will be 91 on Christmas day.... Busy Busy Busy is all i can say....
Re: The New American Stardard Daily Check In « Result #49 on Dec 23, 2009, 7:32am »
Cold dark and thirty in Irvine too. Just got back from morning walk and looking forward to JURY DUTY on the day before Christmas Eve. How cold is that? There is a bright side to it. By serving on jury duty for the day, I will make an extra $12:50.
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 3,743 Location: Scufflegrit, Alabama
Jeremy Houck MDiv « Result #57 on Dec 22, 2009, 8:05pm »
My final grades were posted today and I am officially done with my MDiv. You are looking at the ramblings of an alumnus of Liberty Theological Seminary.
Just curious? where in there does it say God does not already know the choice to be made?
But lets not stop there
Jeremiah 18:11-12 (NASB) 11 "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the Lord, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."' 12 "[bold] But they will say [/bold], 'It's hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.'
How does God know what they will say even before they say it? the word "nacham" translated reconsider is literally " I am sorry" that I promised it. certainly not from what follows that He did not know the outcome
John
Does God have the capacity to reconsider something or not? That's the whole point of this parable. Do you agree with this passage or not?
Re: Pastors main responsibility? « Result #59 on Dec 22, 2009, 5:32pm »
An Evangelist was one who spread the gospel, and traveled and visited and esiablished Elders, minister to a group for a time....I just dont see where a BODY paid to retain their own Evangelist....
Not that it is wrong; a BODY can do that....freedom in the Lord....
But why put it on the members to pay a person $20000-$60000 a year to preach and minister to them, when a few good Elders can do it and for free?
Most BODIES do not need an Evangelist, they just think they do..save yourselves money, get your minister to help qualify some Elders....
Going to an office 'exchange gifts' wingding today. The youngest guy involved, for his gift, gave some Crown Royal booze. He's 19 years old. Brought alcoholic to a business with no license to even SELL hard liquor. The second in command (I say that, rolling my eyes, sadly shaking my head) told him that was an acceptable 'home warming' gift.
If I get that gift, I plan on pouring it down a toilet, in plain sight of as many as possible. When is a joke no longer funny?
UPDATE!
It turned out pretty good. I received a nice gift. When the person drew out the number to get that BOOZE BOX gift, you should have seen all the commotion.
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,266 Location: Long Island New York
Re: Prayer « Result #68 on Dec 22, 2009, 2:00pm »
Quote:
You see, if God already knew that He would be sorry that He had made man, what purpose would there be for God waiting until Noah came along before deciding that He would say He was so sorry that He was going to do something about it?
Well actually this is known in Theology as the full cup scenario. God waits until ones cup of offenses is full or even overflowing (thats the mercy part) before passing condemnation. Did God really have to send two angels to Sodom to make sure their sin was as he thought it was? why has He waited so long to deal with the harlot whose cup is overflowing with the blood of the saints? so there would be no excuse is the only answer.
Quote:
Does anyone really expect either side to believe the other? Probably not.
I actually do believe that you and Mike really believe what you do and I respect that. believing and agreeing are two separate things however.
This is why we will never truly have a reasonable discussion over Open Theology here: those who believe that it is impossible for God not to have seen everything and therefore know it all before the creation began will always believe that when scripture says something about God "now knowing," or God "changing His mind," or God "reconsidering," will always find what they believe to be a way to say that scripture does not say this.
You see, if God already knew that He would be sorry that He had made man, what purpose would there be for God waiting until Noah came along before deciding that He would say He was so sorry that He was going to do something about it? If God would actually make the statement that He relented or repented, or whatever, and changed His intended course of action, either He actually did that or He lied about it. You make that call.
Knowing may not mean causing, however foreknowing precludes any opportunity for future action to be changed. For IF one changed his mind, would that have also been known or not known? If the change was also known, then that was also something which could not have been changed.
John, you said, "And yet we are never told this occurs." Nor are we ever told--or even is it implied--that God knows every future decision of every man from before the creation. I asked for that verse before but it has not been provided.
What you have provided has been specific instances of prophecy, where God's will was carried out exactly as He said it would be--and yet for some reason you don't want to consider that God has the power to cause things to work together to bring about the fulfillment of His plan...even though there are examples such as Tyre and Sidon which took quite a period of time, with different events bringing about the total fulfillment.
What we have provided are several instances where God shows growing frustration with the response given, God specifically saying that He would change His action, etc., and yet all we hear back is that "that's not what He really means."
Does anyone really expect either side to believe the other? Probably not.
DISCLAIMER: The thoughts expressed above are solely the opinon of this writer. They are in no way to be considered perfect or binding upon any reader. However, in the event that when Christ returns it is discovered that this opinion is correct, this writer reserves the right to say "I TOLD YOU SO!"
Re: The New American Stardard Daily Check In « Result #71 on Dec 22, 2009, 1:18pm »
Going to an office 'exchange gifts' wingding today. The youngest guy involved, for his gift, gave some Crown Royal booze. He's 19 years old. Brought alcoholic to a business with no license to even SELL hard liquor. The second in command (I say that, rolling my eyes, sadly shaking my head) told him that was an acceptable 'home warming' gift.
If I get that gift, I plan on pouring it down a toilet, in plain sight of as many as possible. When is a joke no longer funny?
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
I know I've served some pretty good elders and also come across some pretty bad ones as well but ultimately think that sometimes I fit that picture. The best thing in all of this discussion is we need more godly leaders .... there is a broken world out there including leaders who are serving. Whose family doesn't know someone or have someone that is broken or messy? I think the best thing is to encourage, equip, and pray for the leaders God has established. I know I'm glad to have served with some great ones.
I've always been amazed at the HUGE/GARGANTUAN difference of opinion, in the area of leadership, as I've visited congregations, even when it comes to 'what to call' those who teach or preach.
I must say that I've been encouraged, overall, with the number of groups who still at least consider baptism to be essential to salvation.
Sadly, I've also noticed many elders/pastors and evangelists/preachers who are at best Baptist/at worst Unknown in their doctrinal stand.
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
Woke up to another inch or so of fresh snow - getting ready to mix up some dough for cookies, then taking my 17 yr old to the mall - Lord, protect me - to shop for his GF.
He should be able to find a nice one this time of year Scott.
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 472 Location: IN
Re: Feedback Requested « Result #76 on Dec 22, 2009, 11:42am »
RP- While I agreed with Caulley's article, I think that your letter was a good and thoughtful critique from the "conservative" perspective on his "liberal" views which I hope he expected. I think your letter contributed to the conversation that should take place after reading any Christian Standard article.
Leaders only bring 3 things to the table: energy, ideas, and initiative
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 91,612 Location: Stuck in the 70's
Re: The New American Stardard Daily Check In « Result #77 on Dec 22, 2009, 11:21am »
Woke up to another inch or so of fresh snow - getting ready to mix up some dough for cookies, then taking my 17 yr old to the mall - Lord, protect me - to shop for his GF.
Re: Prayer « Result #80 on Dec 22, 2009, 10:35am »
Thanks John.
Whether Jesus knew it due to foreknowledge or just keen insight, did Jesus knowing in advance that Judas would betray him mean that Judas had no choice but to betray Jesus?
Did Judas not have free will do Jesus knowing what he would do in advance?
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,266 Location: Long Island New York
Re: Prayer « Result #81 on Dec 22, 2009, 10:21am »
John 6:64-65 (NASB) 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
For Jesus knew from the beginning. Before it was a thought or entered the heart etc etc etc
John 6:70-71 (NASB) 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.
two years before the actual act or before it became a thought (not to mention the prophecy in Psalms)
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,266 Location: Long Island New York
Re: Pastors main responsibility? « Result #83 on Dec 22, 2009, 9:12am »
I think your third point and closing comment are right on the mark. I thought you were saying that no elder should receive compensation. But clearly if one is working hard at preaching and ruling well, then he should be getting support from the gospel he preaches and as you say is not proably involved in full time employment. since there was no minister in Paul day as we know him and the responsibilities we are talking about were carried out by te elders, it does get confusing to discuss this today
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,266 Location: Long Island New York
Re: The New American Stardard Daily Check In « Result #84 on Dec 22, 2009, 9:06am »
Morning all
So I finally get everything shoveled out and last night about 10PM a plow comes through and blocks the drive way again, a day and a half after the storm. Love to see those tax dollars at work
Evening all - cold, but no snow here - were calling for snow later this week, but now it looks like rain - wasn't looking forward to going to the cemetary on Wed in the Snow -
My heart goes out to your family. Any scheduling problems for Jason and the other family members?
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
I've got a fever . . . and the only prescription . . . is more cowbell!!!
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 307 Location: Cary, NC
Re: Pastors main responsibility? « Result #91 on Dec 21, 2009, 9:02pm »
First, we supply a salary for the minister because he has given up other income to spend his life serving the church, while most elders -- I would make an uneducated guess that this applies to 98% or more in our brotherhood -- don't do that, but serve in addition to whatever full-time career they follow. Whether we should do that or not can be debated, but can only be criticized from a "silence of scripture" position. But in this thread, that doesn't matter anyway, since Fess's statement was specifically about elders.
Second, I said, "Not much." I didn't say, "No support at all."
Third, Paul uses each of those three phrases, in particular combinations, in two passages. In 1 Tim. 5, he combines not muzzling the ox with the "double honor" statement, and he IS referring to elders in the church. But not to ALL elders -- only those who are exceptionally diligent in their "rule", especially in "labor in preaching and teaching". Most of the commentaries I've checked on this take the position that if such elders serve at such a level of involvement, it is difficult for them to sustain adequate employment to care for themselves and any family, and so the church should make them financially able to fulfill their ministry. While it wouldn't mean so across the board, I would think that for many, that would mean that they become employees of the church -- what we call and pay as "ministers". But again, it isn't ALL elders, only the exceptional ones.
Fourth, Paul combines the non-ox-muzzling with the other phrase you list, the "gaining livelihood from preaching" in 1st Cor. 9. When he uses it there, he is writing specifically of the support he and his companion(s) receive from the churches, to enable them to travel and preach and teach. This reference has nothing at all to do with elders receiving pay.
So, I stand by my statement. The NT does not contain much support for the idea of a paid eldership. It refers to such a thing only once, and in that once, it includes only those who meet certain particular qualification.
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,693 Location: Somewhere in Between
Re: The New American Stardard Daily Check In « Result #92 on Dec 21, 2009, 7:33pm »
Evening all - cold, but no snow here - were calling for snow later this week, but now it looks like rain - wasn't looking forward to going to the cemetary on Wed in the Snow -
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,266 Location: Long Island New York
Re: Pastors main responsibility? « Result #93 on Dec 21, 2009, 7:03pm »
Really? let the elder who rules well be considered worthy of double honor Muzzle not the ox as he threshes a man should gain his livelyhood from the gospel he preaches
So we can supply a salary for an unscriptural office called minister but not to the shepherds appointed in every city?
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,266 Location: Long Island New York
Re: Prayer « Result #94 on Dec 21, 2009, 7:00pm »
Just curious? where in there does it say God does not already know the choice to be made?
But lets not stop there
Jeremiah 18:11-12 (NASB) 11 "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the Lord, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."' 12 "[bold] But they will say [/bold], 'It's hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.'
How does God know what they will say even before they say it? the word "nacham" translated reconsider is literally " I am sorry" that I promised it. certainly not from what follows that He did not know the outcome
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
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